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When did you first meet Barbara?
In 1999 we went out someplace nice as couples on the river in Chattanooga, TN during a Sonship conference. Barbara met David before that in Africa; she knew David better than she knew me; she was just meeting me that day. David and Josiah had already spent time together in Japan and Africa. They had built a friendship at that point. I remember we had similar situations with our kids and connected on that level and I remember laughing a lot. It was a good time.
How would you describe your relationship with Barbara?
Dave and Josiah got to choose their relationship but Barbara and I did not. We have an arranged marriage of sorts. We were brought together by our husbands. We meet mostly because our husbands need to keep in constant relationship. At the same time we are growing with the time we have spent together in our relationship. We are learning quickly about each other's idiosyncrasies. Funny thing is, just as Dave and I married as an incompatible couple, I see Barbara and I as an incompatible couple. The only difference is we have Jesus and we are older and more mature than when I first met Dave, so Barbara and I are learning quicker. We are very different that it's kind of amusing. I am more traditional and conservative in dress, house decorating, or anything. I'm the one in black and Barbara is the one in hot pink and orange! I love to exercise, do sports, and horseback ride; Barbara definitely does not. Barbara is a thinker and I am a doer. Barbara is very creative and I have a hard time thinking out of the box. Barbara makes decisions and I'm indecisive. The one thing we do have in common is our faith. Oh, yeah, and we are both absent minded! Both our personalities are on the fun side, too. When things happen or we say something, we just laugh. We look at each other as a fun relationship to grow in. A quote I really like that’s hanging in my bathroom is, “Blessed are those who can laugh at themselves because they will never cease to be amused.” If you can learn to laugh at yourself (Barbara is like that too) that connects on a level deeper than you might think.
Do you feel there is a ‘role’ of pastor’s wife?
In many churches, there is often the pressure when you are out in public that you are modeling the church and Christianity. When I first came to Grace, I remember explaining to the other three couples starting Grace that 'it wasn't a two-for-one deal. David is the pastor. I am a member of the church and will do in the church whatever my gifts allow me to do.’ It was started from day one with that perspective. In my previous role (at a another church), there was a lot of guilt. They tend to put the pastor’s wife on a higher plane. You felt like you had to be careful of what you said, what you wore, etc. Because I had such young children, and I was going into teaching, and with our past experience working in church, I felt it was important to set some boundaries. My ‘role” at the church has grown from that. I have a much more free spirit and grace from the people here to be myself. It’s a forgiving atmosphere, loving, truth and honesty and grace back and forth. It also helped that our elders at that time were our closest friends.
How would you describe your marriage to Dave?
I think the thing I’ve most learned (during these years at Grace) is how to ‘do marriage.’ We’ve been married 30 years this year. It finally hit us: It’s not all about me. Dave loves me because he loves Jesus. He has come to that kind of respect and honesty. Then, I grew in respect for him. God laid it on my heart, and I learned to respect and trust and honor him. It is such a better relationship. That was after 25 years of marriage. Why did it take so long to get to that point? Pride and self righteousness and the deep-rooted belief that it is really all about me. We want things our way. We finally started to change by letting more and more of the Gospel and Galatians saturate us. At night we would read books on marriage together. We read back and forth to each other, it was so good. Just learning more about each other after 25 years is awesome. I’m a hard learner. Dave says I’m a teachable person now, where I wasn’t a teachable person in the past. And Dave has also grown. He’s not as quick to defend himself, he thinks more about me and the kids, processes more, and he’s learned to live with me as who I am. We have reached that mutual submission he preaches about.
How would you describe the partnership between Dave and Josiah?
They are on the same wave length intellectually, they spend time together, they know each other’s weaknesses. They’ve lived in close quarters together – on mission trips. Partnership is difficult work, but I think it’s God’s timing that we are attempting this now. We’re older, more mature, we have been saturated in Jesus and the Gospel for a while now, we are quicker learners. The graceful maturity has allowed Dave and Josiah to not have as much of a focus on themselves and their success. Their focus is more on the church, the people of the church, the relationships in the church, and Jesus as the head of that. They are more concerned about the unity and the purity of the church, rather than themselves.
How much do they desire to model the Gospel?
They want to model their relationship because God made us for relationship, whether in marriage, or with our children there’s got to be unity and harmony. Of course, there will be some discord, but then you model what it’s like to forgive. That’s what they want to show – the Gospel working itself out in love. Doing conflict in a loving and respectful relationship, rather than defensively, not hurting each other. They want to be proactive in forgiveness and what that looks like and hopefully that trickles down to the congregation. Recently, some of Grace’s worship principles were questioned by the Presbytery. It was often a very difficult situation with lots of tension. David was patient and gentle and kind, modeling relationship instead of demanding that he get his way or prove himself to be ‘in the right.’ He believes in the unity and purity of the church and not splitting. He stuck to it. It changed everybody, including him. He wanted to give up now and then, but I so respected the way he handled the situation.
When did Dave start talking about the possibility of co-pastors?
It’s been a while. It has been turning in his head from the very beginning. He’s wanted a co-pastorship ever since we started the church. You have to have the right mix, the right people. It has to be if it’s going to work – and the possibility never presented itself until Josiah. Some people question whether a 50/50 partnership can work. Some people suggested maybe it should be Josiah 49 and David 51. David said no. He wanted it to be the kind of mutual submission of a marriage. When times of conflict come, they will work it out in unity, by submitting to one another.
When did Dave start to consider Josiah as a potential co-pastor?
Before Josiah and Barbara even suspected anything, David had it in his mind. We had them out to dinner, they loved Arden and the people there. When they came back from Ireland to raise support, David offered them a place to stay in the area so they could come to Grace. David didn’t know what was going to happen, but now you can see God’s hand in it. When Sarah got so sick, Josiah was only happy to help preach. We didn’t want to drive back and forth from the hospital in Chapel Hill, and we were able to stay with her until she was out of danger. When David said he was considering asking Josiah to come on (as a co-pastor), I was all for it. It’s what David always wanted. Being in the pastorate watching one man, even with staff, it’s still comes down to: the buck stops here. If you have someone else to share that with, share the burden, one can pick up the ball for the other. It’s already happening. Now, we are just beginning to see the potential. David can do things like work on this worship stuff, meeting with black pastors for racial reconciliation, and a lot of things people don’t see behind the scenes. It’s not all about one person up there preaching; I see the two of them and each one of them is less burdened. They’re busy, they get stressed and stretched, but it’s different because they have someone to share it with; they’re not alone. I think that’s how God made it; it’s about relationship, even in marriage, we have each other, in sickness and in health, so if somebody is down, the other is there to help them up.
What has it meant for you to be part of what is happening at Grace?
Dave was pastoring and doing accounting in Philadelphia. There wasn’t much risk or challenge in what we were doing. When he was asked to come and lead a church start with three other couples that brought us into real joy and adventure. Through constant trial and error, and God’s unbelievable grace, we now have something very unique here. It’s a pleasant surprise that people come from all over and from different denominations. It’s the Gospel that draws people to Christ. That is so much fun because you never know what it’s going to look like. Going places, meeting people of all different walks of life is exciting. I’ve always said that I don’t know how people could not be in a church -- to not have that sense of family on a larger level. To be with a huge number of different kinds of people, how exciting is that?
Where would you like to see Grace go?
I think a lot of people come into this place to heal, and that’s a good thing. But I also think we need to bring them to a place beyond that in order to be active and more of a part of what is going on. To experience the vision of Grace and His Kingdom rather than just accept it.
Outside the church what engages you?
Anything active engages me – I love to work out and be outside and ride Luke. I enjoy working and at the moment I am self employed as a bookkeeper. I was teaching high school but got sick and stopped working. I went back to school and took classes in accounting. I love it because I can be home working when Dave is working at home and it gives me great flexibility for friends and family. It fits me perfectly.
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